Discussion:
Londoners 'converted to Islam' at gunpoint
(too old to reply)
jackkincaid
2005-02-05 01:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Muslim Boys, London's most feared street gang, convert Londoners to
Islam at gunpoint...
...if they're black.
These look like Somalis [snip]
No, they're not Somalis, they're British-born and bred, of (I'd guess)
Jamaican parentage.

They're typical gangbangers except that they've been in and out of
borstals and prisons from an early age,
and were converetd to Islam while inside. Once out they got hold of a
tasty line in weaponry for themselves.

I say 'they'. My guess is there are about a dozen ringleaders. The rest
(50 to 150) are hangers-on, pet dealers,
pimps and the like, and frightened kids who've been 'converted'.

The Somali gangs in London are more often the 'enemies' of the Jamaican
gangs and besides, tend to congregate
in east, not south, London.

Could be a weird fashion, could be a straw in the wind. Don't like the
part about the sub-machine guns.
That entire story was hilariously over-the-top. Typical tabloid
shit.

Be nice to think so, wouldn't it? Cohen's investigation pieces have
never been shit before. He had photos, direct quotes,
and direct quotes from named policemen, who would sue the Standard's
arse off if Cohen had made them up.

He also quoted the chairman of a named mosque, which would be very
risky legally if it were a lie, and even riskier if
true, which means it must be bad for the guy to break cover. Besides,
FWIW, I've heard rumours about this myself,
and so have other people I know who work in the London trade. It's one
of the reasons I keep sounding off about this subject.

So not so hilarious. I'll put you down as someone who can't take the
truth then, shall I
Maria
2005-02-05 01:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by jackkincaid
Muslim Boys, London's most feared street gang, convert Londoners to
Islam at gunpoint...
...if they're black.
These look like Somalis [snip]
No, they're not Somalis, they're British-born and bred, of (I'd guess)
Jamaican parentage.
They're typical gangbangers except that they've been in and out of
borstals and prisons from an early age,
and were converetd to Islam while inside. Once out they got hold of a
tasty line in weaponry for themselves.
I say 'they'. My guess is there are about a dozen ringleaders. The rest
(50 to 150) are hangers-on, pet dealers,
pimps and the like, and frightened kids who've been 'converted'.
The Somali gangs in London are more often the 'enemies' of the Jamaican
gangs and besides, tend to congregate
in east, not south, London.
Could be a weird fashion, could be a straw in the wind. Don't like the
part about the sub-machine guns.
That entire story was hilariously over-the-top. Typical tabloid
shit.
Be nice to think so, wouldn't it? Cohen's investigation pieces have
never been shit before. He had photos, direct quotes,
and direct quotes from named policemen, who would sue the Standard's
arse off if Cohen had made them up.
He also quoted the chairman of a named mosque, which would be very
risky legally if it were a lie, and even riskier if
true, which means it must be bad for the guy to break cover. Besides,
FWIW, I've heard rumours about this myself,
and so have other people I know who work in the London trade. It's one
of the reasons I keep sounding off about this subject.
So not so hilarious. I'll put you down as someone who can't take the
truth then, shall I
Any particular reason why the report does not appear to be available
on the This is London web site?
I did have a good look but could only find the BLINK report someone
else has posted.

Where did you get the copy from?
Maria
2005-02-05 02:00:33 UTC
Permalink
On 4 Feb 2005 17:36:29 -0800, "jackkincaid" <***@another.com>
wrote:


Found the article today!

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16372042?source=Evening%20Standard

The rise of the Muslim Boys
By David Cohen, Evening Standard
3 February 2005

Winston emerges menacingly from the kitchen, a meat cleaver in one
hand and a kitchen knife with an eight-inch blade in the other. "I
love knives," he says, his eyes gleaming as he begins to slash the air
inches from my face.

"Guns make a f***ing noise, but knives go in," he pauses, "
silentlike, easy." He begins stabbing the wall and hacking the
plaster, and then, just as suddenly, stops, seemingly sated, like an
addict who has had his fix.

He holds up his blades to inspect them. "F***ing quality," he says,
and deposits them unceremoniously his trousers. Winston, 21, black and
from south London, licks his

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teeth as he paces around the stripped-bare flat on a Peckham estate
that serves as one of his gang's many secret hideouts. He speaks in
his gang's uniquely coded lingo.

"Knives is f***-all. Later, my bruvs will be back from their robberies
with our skengelengs [guns] and cream [money]. Later there be
MACinside-10s [sub-machine guns] all over the floor, laid wall to
wall. And moolah! We count it - 10 grand, 20 grand. Then, after
midnight," he adds, matter-of-factly, "me and my bruvs go to mosque to
pray."

Winston's casual depiction of a lifestyle of crime tightly bound up
with religious observance would normally be regarded as paradoxical,
but in his case it is what defines him. For Winston is a member of the
Muslim Boys, a gang, the black community says, unlike any that has
operated before in south London.

Until now, the Muslim Boys have never allowed any members to be
interviewed. Ex-convicts and youth workers who know some of them
personally warned us: "It's too dangerous. They'll shoot you on the
spot."

But an Evening Standard investigation - involving dozens of interviews
and finding go-betweens with underworld connections who would agree to
take us into one of the many dens of the Muslim Boys - has for the
first time thrown light on this street phenomenon.

They number in their hundreds, according to some estimates, with ages
ranging from 15 to 30, and their hallmark is extreme violence, with
automatic and semi-automatic machine guns their weapons of choice. But
what makes them unique is that they are socalled "converts", whose
perverted interpretation of Islam is central to their identity as
killers and criminals. Their stamping grounds are the estates of south
London, where they hole-up in safe houses, living ascetic lives in
stark contrast to the " blingbling" lifestyle of other gangs.

D e t e c t i v e Chief Superintendent John Coles, in charge of the
Met's Operation Trident team, which investigates black-onblack
shootings, confirmed that " the Muslim Boys are responsible for at
least two executionstyle murders in the past eight months", as well as
scores of robberies and attempted murders. "We have taken out most of
the hardcore," he says. "We arrested 20 of them. The majority were
sentenced for crimes ranging from murder to shootings to possession of
firearms and drugs."

The shooting of PC Liam Morrow, shot in the legs in Bromley in
December, has also been linked to the gang. A 19-yearold youth has
been charged with attempted murder.

Coles believes, nevertheless, that the Muslim Boys have been
"over-hyped", that there are "less than a hundred", and that they are
nothing more than "nasty, ordinary south London criminals who have
adopted the Muslim Boys name to make them sound bigger and more
fearsome than they really are".

But Lee Jasper, the Mayor of London's senior advisor on policing,
vehemently disagrees. He says: "The Muslim Boys pose one of the most
serious criminal threats the black community has ever faced. The
police tell me they have never seen anything like this gang before.
They speak in an almost impenetrable code, they use heavy firepower,
are forensically aware, unbelievably violent and extraordinarily
disciplined. They're as tough to crack as the IRA."

Our investigation reveals that Jasper's concerns are shared by many -
including youth workers dealing with vulnerable teenagers in south
London.

The Muslim Boys, they say, are notorious for intimidating imams into
opening their mosques in the early hours of the morning so that they
can pray, often right after committing crimes, and for their "forced
conversions", carried out at gunpoint, of black youths to Islam. At
least one local young man, Adrian Marriott, thought to have resisted
such a conversion, is believed to have been murdered "as an example to
others".

At greatest risk of being forcibly recruited are "feral kids", the
kind identified by outgoing Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir John
Stevens as being left to fend for themselves without adult
supervision, and who already operate on the fringes of criminality.

This is how gang member Winston describes "conversion". "You got to be
Muslim to be in our group," he tells me. "If you not down [cool] with
Muslim, we visit your home, maybe strip you naked in front of your
f***ing mother, we put a gun in your mouth. We give you three days [to
change your mind], then, if you not down with it, we f* * * ing blow

The existence of the gang is a cause of profound concern within the
Muslim community. The precedent set by Richard Reid - the infamous "
shoebomber" who prayed at Brixton mosque, and who was both a black
convert and a criminal who became a terrorist - is one they don't want
repeated.

Last month, the Brixton and Stockwell mosques moved to publicly
distance themselves from the gang, saying - without actually naming
the Muslim Boys - that there are "criminals masquerading as Muslims"
who threaten the good name of their religion.

Abdul Haqq Baker, chairman of Brixton mosque, said: "What we are
seeing is a new phenomenon that I have not seen in my 15 years as a
Muslim." He added that TV scenes of militant uprisings in the Middle
East are presenting a distorted view of Islam that appeals to
criminals. "Keep away from our mosques," he pleaded.

Lee Jasper, speaking in his capacity as chair of the Lambeth police
consultative group, says that "the story is potentially explosive",
but that he is speaking out because he has become "increasingly
frustrated" at the "lack of adequate police action".

"So far," he says tersely, meeting me face-to-face in central London,
"police arrests have not made a dent in this lot. There is barely a
major estate in Lambeth or Southwark - and increasingly in Lewisham -
not dominated by the Muslim Boys. The problem is that the police treat
them like an ordinary criminal gang, which they are not. I've asked
them to increase their level of policing to a level appropriate for
serious organised crime. But the Met has refused to raise its game."

Jasper's deepest worry - that "the leaders of the Muslim Boys could be
a criminalised front for terrorist extremists" - is voiced by many
with links to the south London underworld.

Trident's John Coles acknowledges these concerns, but says, "we have
found no evidence whatsoever of a link to terrorism". Nevertheless,
questions remain: if their crime spree is not funding a lavish
lifestyle, what are the Muslim Boys doing with their illgotten gains?

The story of the rise of the Muslim Boys started 15 months ago, when a
hardcore of Afro-Caribbean "Muslim converts" began violently "taxing"
the south London criminal community. Dressed in long, flowing black
leather coats, as in the film The Matrix, and initially dubbed "the
Taliban Terrorists", these were exconvicts who had been turned on to
Islam in prison, and who began to use the austere discipline of Islam
to fashion a criminal network with a "higher" purpose.

Their first targets were other criminals - especially local drug
dealers and pimps - who were ordered to pay "protection money". If the
dealers refused, they were held at gunpoint, often facing the muzzle
of a MAC-10.

In the early days, there were about 25 hardcore members, plus 40 "
footsoldiers". They had come out of a gang called the SMS, the South
Man Syndicate, and now began to rope in other crews, such as The
Brotherhood and the Stockwell Crew, evolving into an umbrella crew
called the PDC, Poverty Driven Children. To this day, gang members
refer to themselves as PDC, regarding the Muslim Boys as a term used
by outsiders.

By January 2004, the gang had managed the unique feat of uniting the
bitterly divided south-east black criminal-fraternity against them.
City officials became aware of a war brewing, says Jasper. "The police
were warned: either you take them out, or we do. If you don't move on
these guys, all hell will break loose."

Police arrests, it is claimed, have failed to break the gang. Instead,
the Muslim Boys are believed to have prospered, recruiting inside
Feltham, Brixton and Wandsworth prisons, as well as on the outside,
and their numbers have leapfrogged from dozens to hundreds. It has
helped that the Yardies, once the most feared gangsters in London,
have become marginalised, and the Muslim Boys are said to have stepped
into the breach.

Wayne Rowe, 39, an ex-prisoner working as a Brixton community liaison
officer, explains their appeal. "For many poverty-stricken kids
growing up alienated on estates, often without fathers, the Muslim
Boys have become a seductive, alternative family."

One who was nearly seduced was Michael, 31, a youth worker for a south
London charity, who thought of joining the gang after growing up
alongside many of their older brothers. He says they have jumped on
the al Qaeda bandwagon. "Since 9/11, Muslims have become demonised as
the number one enemy and alienated black kids feel a kinship with
this. The war in Iraq has taught them that those with the biggest guns
rule, and so they have the biggest guns."

The trend of black youths converting to Islam has gathered pace in the
past three years. Omar Urquhart, 34, imam of the Brixton mosque and
himself a black convert to Islam, says: "Sixty per cent of their
500-strong community are black converts."

Unlike religions that have lengthy, formal conversions, the process in
Islam can be instant. You neither have to convert in a mosque, nor in
front of an imam, says the Muslim Council of Britain. All that is
needed is that, in the presence of two other Muslims, you voluntarily
make a declaration of faith "that none is worthy of worship except
Allah" and that "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah".

But the conversions administered forcibly by the Muslim Boys are, says
Imam Omar, totally anti-Islamic, as is their violent, criminal
lifestyle.

Last June, the imam had to step in personally after Adrian Marriott -
having been hounded by the gang to convert with bullying visits to his
home - was found shot several times in the head, in parkland off
Barrington Road, Brixton.

"I had to approach the family of the murdered boy and assure them that
these criminals have nothing to do with real Islam, or with our
mosque," he says. Three men in their early twenties have been charged
with Adrian Marriott's murder.

The Standard's attempts to reach a member of the Muslim Boys initially
came to nothing, with warnings that contact was "not possible". But
suddenly, one afternoon, I am told: "A middle-ranking member will see
you." I am driven down the Old Kent Road to a poverty-stricken estate
- whose name I am obliged to keep secret - and led upstairs to a
dingy-looking flat.

There, lithe and athletic, and fiddling incessantly with his knives,
Winston speaks to me, often lapsing into his strange "lingwo", as he
calls it, for over an hour. When the time feels right, I ask him about
Adrian Marriott. "Yeah, I went to school with him, grew up with him."
he says, spitting out each word with venom.

Why was he shot? I ask. "His name came up, innit. He was involved in
this Muslim Boys t'ing. He did something that doubled back on his
people. So they killed him. Shot in his mouth and his throat."

HAVE you killed anyone? I press him. "I've stabbed people," he says.
"Everyone I know has." Ever shot anyone? "Not at close range. My other
bruvs have, obviously. But I ain ' t, " he half- smiles, " 'cos I got
a little bit of heart. I don't mind f***ing someone up, but I won't
blow them in the mouth. I turn my head when I see them things happen,
bruv. It happens."

Winston, who has done time in Feltham and Bullingdon prisons for
burglary, armed robbery, GBH and affray, says his life of crime
started when he left home and school at 14.

"My father, f*** him, he was a low-life drug addict. He held up banks
and went to prison when I was 12. I never knew the lovely life - you
know, nine-to-five, kids, settle down. My life is the grime. Look at
this s***-hole. I'm on the run. This year I've lived in 15 places just
like this."

Winston invites me to look around the flat, which he calls "the
slumberdrop" and resembles a bolt-hole in a war zone. In the bedroom,
there is a bed with a cardboard box stuffed full of clothes; the
second bedroom, piled top to bottom with rubbish, cannot even be
entered; and the living room has no carpet, just a foam-rubber sofa
without upholstery and a small television.

"This is where we do everything - count the money, sell the drugs,
hide our guns," he boasts. The picture Winston paints is of an
affiliation of gangs - all "converted Muslims" - holding up banks and
post offices, trading guns and "taxing" drug dealers, then returning
days later to share the booty with affiliates. According to Winston,
gang members fan out beyond London to towns such as Reading and
Bristol.

If this is true, then Winston and his fellow Muslim Boys are
responsible for a national crime wave whose significance extends way
beyond south London.

Aren't you worried about the police catching up with you? "The police
are f***-all - they don't bother me," he shoots back. "The people I
worry about is the gangs. This t'ing of being a Muslim is a new t'ing.
It used to be that being in a gang was an individual t'ing. You could
come in and leave the next day. But this Muslim t'ing is for life. The
only way I can get out of this is if I done a certain amount of
murders, then I can get out at the last one."

When I ask Winston whether he believes in Islam, he prevaricates.
"Sort of," he says. "I converted when I was in prison. I found it
relaxing, we got better food. Now we all go to mosque together. If I
refuse, they blow [shoot] me, innit. I pray twice a day: before I do
crime, and after. I ask Allah for a blessing when I'm out on the
street. Afterwards, I apologise to Allah for what I done."

Winston becomes angry when I show him the Brixton mosque's
denunciation of his crew as "bogus Muslims", crushing their statement
in his fist. "F***ing cheek!" he says. "Mocking us. There be
retribution for this!"

Winston is now agitated again and he begins playing with his knives,
laying them in patterns at his feet. "You lucky the other bruvs not
here yet," he says. "They pick you up and throw you straight off the
f***ing balcony."

One final question, I say. Where does your money go? "To the f***ing
laundry, innit," he says, licking his teeth. Is there any connection
between your gang and al Qaeda? He glares at me. "That's a deep piece
of info. I support Bin Laden. I wouldn't ask that question, bruv -
it's rude, it's dangerous, it's ..."

Time to leave. There are moments when words do not come easily to
Winston, when he prefers to let his hands do the talking, and right
now, they are being frighteningly expressive.
Maria
2005-02-05 02:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by jackkincaid
Muslim Boys, London's most feared street gang, convert Londoners to
Islam at gunpoint...
...if they're black.
These look like Somalis [snip]
No, they're not Somalis, they're British-born and bred, of (I'd guess)
Jamaican parentage.
They're typical gangbangers except that they've been in and out of
borstals and prisons from an early age,
and were converetd to Islam while inside. Once out they got hold of a
tasty line in weaponry for themselves.
I say 'they'. My guess is there are about a dozen ringleaders. The rest
(50 to 150) are hangers-on, pet dealers,
pimps and the like, and frightened kids who've been 'converted'.
The Somali gangs in London are more often the 'enemies' of the Jamaican
gangs and besides, tend to congregate
in east, not south, London.
Could be a weird fashion, could be a straw in the wind. Don't like the
part about the sub-machine guns.
That entire story was hilariously over-the-top. Typical tabloid
shit.
Be nice to think so, wouldn't it? Cohen's investigation pieces have
never been shit before. He had photos, direct quotes,
and direct quotes from named policemen, who would sue the Standard's
arse off if Cohen had made them up.
Now I've read the article, it is my considered opinion that Mr Cohen
was unwise to go anywhere near these people, and that he has a duty to
tell the fuzz where this flat down the Old Kent Road is, since it
appears to be a den of thieves and murders and Bin Laden admiring
terrorsits. I would also suggest that Winston is thick as two very
thick planks for taking Mr Cohen there at all.

I wonder if Winston is dead now?
Diversity Isn't A Codeword
2005-02-05 16:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Post by jackkincaid
Muslim Boys, London's most feared street gang, convert Londoners to
Islam at gunpoint...
...if they're black.
These look like Somalis [snip]
No, they're not Somalis, they're British-born and bred, of (I'd guess)
Jamaican parentage.
They're typical gangbangers except that they've been in and out of
borstals and prisons from an early age,
and were converetd to Islam while inside. Once out they got hold of a
tasty line in weaponry for themselves.
I say 'they'. My guess is there are about a dozen ringleaders. The rest
(50 to 150) are hangers-on, pet dealers,
pimps and the like, and frightened kids who've been 'converted'.
The Somali gangs in London are more often the 'enemies' of the Jamaican
gangs and besides, tend to congregate
in east, not south, London.
Could be a weird fashion, could be a straw in the wind. Don't like the
part about the sub-machine guns.
That entire story was hilariously over-the-top. Typical tabloid
shit.
Be nice to think so, wouldn't it? Cohen's investigation pieces have
never been shit before. He had photos, direct quotes,
and direct quotes from named policemen, who would sue the Standard's
arse off if Cohen had made them up.
Now I've read the article, it is my considered opinion that Mr Cohen
was unwise to go anywhere near these people, and that he has a duty to
tell the fuzz where this flat down the Old Kent Road is, since it
appears to be a den of thieves and murders and Bin Laden admiring
terrorsits. I would also suggest that Winston is thick as two very
thick planks for taking Mr Cohen there at all.
the old bill are probably too busy arresting motorists speeding 1mph
over the limit. There are drugs dealers all over the place down the
side roads of Oxford St, you can't tell me the police are clueless to
this and cannot arrest these filthy subhuman scumbags.
Also it's good to see Bliar's gun control legislation working so well,
legally only the criminals being allowed to own weapons and all.
w***@privacy.net
2005-02-05 17:37:56 UTC
Permalink
On 5 Feb 2005 08:17:10 -0800, "Diversity Isn't A Codeword"
Post by jackkincaid
Post by Maria
Post by jackkincaid
Muslim Boys, London's most feared street gang, convert Londoners
to
Post by Maria
Post by jackkincaid
Islam at gunpoint...
...if they're black.
These look like Somalis [snip]
No, they're not Somalis, they're British-born and bred, of (I'd
guess)
Post by Maria
Post by jackkincaid
Jamaican parentage.
They're typical gangbangers except that they've been in and out of
borstals and prisons from an early age,
and were converetd to Islam while inside. Once out they got hold of
a
Post by Maria
Post by jackkincaid
tasty line in weaponry for themselves.
I say 'they'. My guess is there are about a dozen ringleaders. The
rest
Post by Maria
Post by jackkincaid
(50 to 150) are hangers-on, pet dealers,
pimps and the like, and frightened kids who've been 'converted'.
The Somali gangs in London are more often the 'enemies' of the
Jamaican
Post by Maria
Post by jackkincaid
gangs and besides, tend to congregate
in east, not south, London.
Could be a weird fashion, could be a straw in the wind. Don't like
the
Post by Maria
Post by jackkincaid
part about the sub-machine guns.
That entire story was hilariously over-the-top. Typical tabloid
shit.
Be nice to think so, wouldn't it? Cohen's investigation pieces have
never been shit before. He had photos, direct quotes,
and direct quotes from named policemen, who would sue the Standard's
arse off if Cohen had made them up.
Now I've read the article, it is my considered opinion that Mr Cohen
was unwise to go anywhere near these people, and that he has a duty
to
Post by Maria
tell the fuzz where this flat down the Old Kent Road is, since it
appears to be a den of thieves and murders and Bin Laden admiring
terrorsits. I would also suggest that Winston is thick as two very
thick planks for taking Mr Cohen there at all.
the old bill are probably too busy arresting motorists speeding 1mph
over the limit. There are drugs dealers all over the place down the
side roads of Oxford St, you can't tell me the police are clueless to
this and cannot arrest these filthy subhuman scumbags.
Also it's good to see Bliar's gun control legislation working so well,
legally only the criminals being allowed to own weapons and all.
Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will
look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the
blackest. -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the
other hand, arms like laws discourage the keep the invader and the
plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.
-- Thomas Paine, Writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (1894)

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
-- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and
preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief
would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them. -- Thomas
Paine.

How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things
have been like if every police operative, when he went out at night to
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? If
during periods of mass arrests people had not simply sat there in
their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door
and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had
nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush
of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever was at
hand? The organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of
officers and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed
machine would have ground to a halt. -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to
guard and defend it. -- Daniel Webster, in a speech on 3 June, 1834

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may
have to back up his acts with his life. -- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond
This Horizon, 1942

A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny
gun ownership to the bourgeoisie. -- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may
attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be
occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power
to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by
the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms. --
Tench Coxe in `Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the
Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym "A Pennsylvanian" in the
Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1.

Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you
don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power. -- Yoshimi Ishikawa,
author of Japanese best-seller Strawberry Road

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they
should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of
independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would
include their own government. -- George Washington

The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and
the State shall not be questioned. Because the ownership of firearms
is constitutionally protected, its regulation is a matter of statewide
concern. The constitution does not provide that the right to bear arms
shall not be questioned in any part of the commonwealth except
Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, where it may be abridged at will, but
that it shall not be questioned in any part of the commonwealth.
Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, 545 Pa. 279; 681 A.2d 152; 1996 Pa.
Lexis 1447, May 1, 1996, Argued July 18, 1996, Decided.

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation,
that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the
difference between having our arms in possession and under our
direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our
defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can
they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our
own hands? -- Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State
Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836

Without either the first or second amendment, we would have no
liberty; the first allows us to find out what's happening, the second
allows us to do something about it! The second will be taken away
first, followed by the first and then the rest of our freedoms. --
Andrew Ford

Congress shall never disarm any citizen unless such as are or have
been in actual rebellion. -- James Madison

A free people ought...to be armed. -- George Washington, speech of
Jan. 7, 1790 in the Boston Independent Chronicle, Jan. 14, 1790.

The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any
rule of construction be conceived to give to congress a power to
disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under
some general pretence by a state legislature. But if in any blind
pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment
(Second Amendment) may be appealed to as a restraint on both. --
William Rawle, A View of the Constitution of the United States of
America 125-26 (2d ed. 1829)

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I
advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it
gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played
with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body
and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the
constant companion of your walks. -- Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr,
1785. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb
and Bergh, editors.

The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able
might have a gun. -- Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 386.

The congress of the United States possesses no power to regulate, or
interfere with the domestic concerns, or police of any state: it
belongs not to them to establish any rules respecting the rights of
property; nor will the constitution permit any prohibition of arms to
the people. -- Saint George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries (1803),
Volume 1, Appendix, Note D

I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and
violence, I would advise violence. -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. --
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

If those in government are heedless of reason, the people must
patiently submit to Bondage, or stand upon their own Defence; which if
they are enabled to do, they shall never be put upon it, but their
Swords may grow rusty in their hands; for that Nation is surest to
live in Peace, that is most capable of making War; and a Man that hath
a Sword by his side, shall have least occasion to make use of it. --
J. Trenchard & W. Moyle, An Argument Showing, That a Standing Army is
Inconsistent With a Free Government, and Absolutely Destructive to the
Constitution of the English Monarch (London, 1697).

Dogs could not be used in the streets in the manner many Jews were
treated. One circumstance among others put an end to the ill-usage of
the Jews. About the year 1787 Daniel Mendoza, a Jew, became a
celebrated boxer and set up a school to teach the art of boxing as a
science. The art soon spread among young Jews and they became
generally expert at it. The consequence was in a very few years seen
and felt too. It was no longer safe to insult a Jew unless he was an
old man and alone. But even if the Jews were unable to defend
themselves, the few who would now be disposed to insult them merely
because they are Jews, would be in danger of chastisement from the
passers-by and of punishment from the police. -- Francis Place,
Improvement of the Working Classes (1834) as quoted in R. Webb, Modern
England: From the 18th Century to the Present (1970).

The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only to the
government, not to the society; as long as they have nothing to
revenge in the government (which they cannot have while it is in their
own hands) there are many advantages in their being accustomed to the
use of arms and no possible disadvantage. -- Joel Barlow, Advice to
the Privileged Orders in the Several States of Europe: Resulting From
the Necessity and Propriety of a General Revolution in the Principle
of Government (London, 1792, 1795 and reprint 1956).

If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army
pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and
gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional
privilege. -- Wilson v. State, 33 Ark. 557, 560 (1878)

Today's liberals wish to disarm us so they can run their evil and
oppressive agenda on us. The fight against crime is just a convenient
excuse to further their agenda. I don't know about you, but if you
hear that Williams' guns have been taken, you'll know Williams is
dead. -- Walter Williams, Professor of Economics, George Mason
University.

O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it
were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you
could defend yourselves, are gone... Did you ever read of any
revolution in a nation... inflicted by those who had no power at all?
-- Patrick Henry, Elliot p. 3:50-53, in Virginia Ratifying Convention

The tank, the B-52, the fighter-bomber, the state controlled police
and the military are the weapons of dictatorship. The rifle is the
weapon of democracy. Not for nothing was the revolver called an
'equalizer.' Egalite implies liberte. And always will. Let us hope our
weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people
knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the
first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against
tyranny. -- Edward Abbey

Tyranny derives from the oligarchy's "mistrust of the people; hence
they deprive them of arms, ill-treat the lower class, and keep them
from residing in the capital. These are common to oligarchy and
tyranny." Aristotle in Politics (J. Sinclair translation, pg. 218,
1962)

One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for
them. --- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. The Writings of
Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors

If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation
should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime
rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a
century and a half of trying -- that they must sweep under the rug the
southern attempts at gun control in the 1870-1910 period, the
northeastern attempts in the 1920-1939 period, and the attempts at
both Federal and State levels in 1965-1976 -- establishes the
repeated, complete, and inevitable failure of gun laws to control
serious crime. -- Senator Orrin Hatch, Chairman of the Senate
Subcomittee on the Constitution (The Making of America, p.695)

This [Second Amendment] may be considered as the true palladium of
liberty.... The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in
most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right
within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are
kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under
any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already
annihilated, is on the brink of destruction. In England, the people
have been disarmed, generally, under the specious pretext of
preserving the game: a never failing lure to bring over the landed
aristocracy to support any measure, under that mask, though calculated
for very different purposes. True it is, their bill of rights seems at
first view to counteract this policy: but the right of bearing arms is
confined to protestants, and the words suitable to their condition and
degree, have been interpreted to authorise the prohibition of keeping
a gun or other engine for the destruction of game, to any farmer, or
inferior tradesman, or other person not qualified to kill game. So
that not one man in five hundred can keep a gun in his house without
being subject to a penalty. -- Saint George Tucker, Blackstone's
Commentaries (1803), Volume 1, Appendix, Note D [Section 12:
Restraints on Powers of Congress.]

A man cannot lay down the right of resisting them that assault him by
force, to take away his life. Thomas Hobbes in The Leviathan, 1651

It is also in the interests of a tyrant to keep his people poor, so
that they may not be able to afford the cost of protecting themselves
by arms and be so occupied with their daily tasks that they have no
time for rebellion. Aristotle in Politics (J. Sinclair translation,
pg. 226, 1962)

For we may not think ever to keep that people in subjection which hath
always lived in liberty, if they be not disarmed. -- Jean Bodin, in
Six Books of a Commonweale, 1606 AD (R. Knolles translation, pg. 615,
1606)

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from
the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a
society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the
military. -- William Burroughs, The War Universe, taped conversation
(published in Grand Street, no. 37; reprinted in Painting and Guns,
1992, in a slightly different form).

The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a
slave. He who has nothing, and belongs to another, must be defended by
him, and needs no arms: but he who thinks he is his own master, and
has anything he may call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself
and what he possesses, or else he lives precariously and at
discretion. And though for a while those who have the sword in their
power abstain from doing him injury; yet, by degrees, he will be awed
into submission to every arbitrary command. Our ancestors, by being
always armed, and frequently in action, defended themselves against
the Romans, Danes and English; and maintained their liberty against
encroachments of their own princes. -- Andrew Fletcher in A Discourse
of Government with Relation to Militias in Political Works 6, 1749 AD
(London, 1798, pg. 221)


Some princes, so as to hold securely the state, have disarmed their
subjects.... But when you disarm them, you commence to offend them and
show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of
confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred against you.
And because the government cannot remain unarmed, it follows that the
government turns to hired police. Therefore a wise prince has always
distributed arms to the general population. -- Nicolo Machiavelli, The
Prince, Chapter 20 (L. Ricci translation, pg. 105, 1952)

The Constitution of the United States of America clearly affirms the
right of every American citizen to bear arms. And as Americans, we
will not give up a single right guarenteed under the Constitution. The
history of unpunished violence against our people clearly indicates
that we must be prepared to defend ourselves or we will continue to be
a defenseless people at the mercy of a ruthless and violent racist
mob. -- J. Clarke ed. (New York, N.Y., 1969)

You see in this world there's two kind's of people my friend, those
with loaded guns, and those who dig ... you dig! -- Joe in The Good,
The Bad & The Ugly

There exists a law, not written down anywhere, but inborn in our
hearts; a law which comes to us not by training or custom or reading;
a law which has come to us not from theory but from practice, not by
instruction but by natural intuition. I refer to the law which lays it
down that, if our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed
robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is
morally right. -- Marcus Tulius Cicero (106-53 BC)

People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're
begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals
among men were always automatically 'right.' Guns ended that, and
social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make
it work. -- L. Neil Smith, The Probability Broach

Gun control has not worked in D.C. The only people who have guns are
criminals. We have the strictest gun laws in the nation and one of the
highest murder rates. It's quicker to pull your Smith & Wesson than to
dial 911 if you're being robbed. -- Lieutenant Lowell Duckett, Special
Assistant to DC Police Chief; President, Black Police Caucus, The
Washington Post, March 22, 1996.
Nick Cooper
2005-02-05 22:27:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 17:37:56 GMT, ***@privacy.net wrote:

[snip 350+ lines of other people'd quotes]

What's up, areshole? Haven't you got opinions of your own?
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk
Lost in France (& Belgium) - Two weeks in Normandy, the Somme &
Flanders; Simon the Cat of 'HMS Amethyst':
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk
w***@privacy.net
2005-02-06 02:21:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:27:51 GMT,
Post by Nick Cooper
[snip 350+ lines of other people'd quotes]
What's up, areshole? Haven't you got opinions of your own?
Certainly I do. It's my opinion that you're a fucking wimp! I'd wager
that most who know you think that's an accurate opinion too.
Nick Cooper
2005-02-06 14:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@privacy.net
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:27:51 GMT,
Post by Nick Cooper
[snip 350+ lines of other people'd quotes]
What's up, areshole? Haven't you got opinions of your own?
Certainly I do. It's my opinion that you're a fucking wimp!
LOL! You're so scared you think you "need" guns to protect you from
all the nasty bad people. That makes you the wimp, pal.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk
Lost in France (& Belgium) - Two weeks in Normandy, the Somme &
Flanders; Simon the Cat of 'HMS Amethyst':
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk
David Platt
2005-02-07 18:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Cooper
Post by w***@privacy.net
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:27:51 GMT,
Post by Nick Cooper
[snip 350+ lines of other people'd quotes]
What's up, areshole? Haven't you got opinions of your own?
Certainly I do. It's my opinion that you're a fucking wimp!
LOL! You're so scared you think you "need" guns to protect you from
all the nasty bad people. That makes you the wimp, pal.
No it makes him a sensible adult, while you are a fucking moron cooper.
n***@virgin.net
2005-02-08 16:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Platt
Post by Nick Cooper
Post by w***@privacy.net
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 22:27:51 GMT,
Post by Nick Cooper
[snip 350+ lines of other people'd quotes]
What's up, areshole? Haven't you got opinions of your own?
Certainly I do. It's my opinion that you're a fucking wimp!
LOL! You're so scared you think you "need" guns to protect you from
all the nasty bad people. That makes you the wimp, pal.
No it makes him a sensible adult, while you are a fucking moron cooper.
Hardly a valid condemnation coming from a geographically-challenged
lanky streak-of-piss cock-muncher like you.

Nick Cooper
2005-02-05 22:26:18 UTC
Permalink
On 5 Feb 2005 08:17:10 -0800, "Diversity Isn't A Codeword"
Post by Diversity Isn't A Codeword
Also it's good to see Bliar's gun control legislation working so well,
legally only the criminals being allowed to own weapons and all.
The bans on semi-automatic rifles (and larger capacity shotguns) and
large-calibre handguns were not "Blair's legislation," as they were
enacted prior to New Labour coming to power, i.e. by Thatcher and
Major respectively. All Blair was ban the remaining single-shot
small-calibre (i.e. .22 and less) handguns left untouched by the
previous ban. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of your
prejudices, eh?
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
'Things to Come' - An Incomplete Classic:
http://www.thingstocome.org.uk
Lost in France (& Belgium) - Two weeks in Normandy, the Somme &
Flanders; Simon the Cat of 'HMS Amethyst':
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk
David Platt
2005-02-07 18:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@privacy.net
On 5 Feb 2005 08:17:10 -0800, "Diversity Isn't A Codeword"
Post by Diversity Isn't A Codeword
Also it's good to see Bliar's gun control legislation working so well,
legally only the criminals being allowed to own weapons and all.
The bans on semi-automatic rifles (and larger capacity shotguns) and
large-calibre handguns were not "Blair's legislation," as they were
enacted prior to New Labour coming to power, i.e. by Thatcher and
Major respectively. All Blair was ban the remaining single-shot
small-calibre (i.e. .22 and less) handguns left untouched by the
previous ban. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of your
prejudices, eh?
So since these guns are banned, how do you explain these 'muslim boys'
having an arsenal of them, armed to the teeth?
It makes you and the stupid policies you support look pretty fucking
stupid doesn't it.
n***@virgin.net
2005-02-08 16:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Platt
Post by w***@privacy.net
On 5 Feb 2005 08:17:10 -0800, "Diversity Isn't A Codeword"
Post by Diversity Isn't A Codeword
Also it's good to see Bliar's gun control legislation working so well,
legally only the criminals being allowed to own weapons and all.
The bans on semi-automatic rifles (and larger capacity shotguns) and
large-calibre handguns were not "Blair's legislation," as they were
enacted prior to New Labour coming to power, i.e. by Thatcher and
Major respectively. All Blair was ban the remaining single-shot
small-calibre (i.e. .22 and less) handguns left untouched by the
previous ban. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of your
prejudices, eh?
So since these guns are banned, how do you explain these 'muslim boys'
having an arsenal of them, armed to the teeth?
What has that got to do with refuting the OP's bogus attribution of
"gun control legislation" to Blair? Of course, there is actually no
evidence beyond journalistic hyperbole that this criminals are "armed
to the teeth" at all. The article, for example, claims that they use
the "slang" term "shengalengs" for guns, and yet a simple Google search
returns just 8 hits on that "word" or the singular form, none of which
have any connection with firearms. Likewise, the only return on
Google's Usenet archive is this thread here.
Post by David Platt
It makes you and the stupid policies you support look pretty fucking
stupid doesn't it.
It's makes you look even more stupid, considering I didn't say anything
that implies any such "support." Still, to a bigoted cunt like you,
leaping spectacularly to the wrong conclusion seems to come naturally.
Peter
2005-02-05 11:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by jackkincaid
Muslim Boys, London's most feared street gang, convert Londoners to
Islam at gunpoint...
Be nice to think so, wouldn't it? Cohen's investigation pieces have
never been shit before. He had photos, direct quotes,
and direct quotes from named policemen, who would sue the Standard's
arse off if Cohen had made them up.
He also quoted the chairman of a named mosque, which would be very
risky legally if it were a lie, and even riskier if
true, which means it must be bad for the guy to break cover. Besides,
FWIW, I've heard rumours about this myself,
and so have other people I know who work in the London trade. It's one
of the reasons I keep sounding off about this subject.
So not so hilarious. I'll put you down as someone who can't take the
truth then, shall I
If its in the papers it must be a lie!
P>
Mabon Dane
2005-02-05 12:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Some truth but over hyped to sell the newspapers. Gangs that include
religion in their structure are bad news. Too much control and
restriction is pushing folk to the sidelines where they will make their
own rules.

Mabon Dane
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