Discussion:
Police to Break in to People's Homes at Night
(too old to reply)
Maria
2010-02-12 02:08:09 UTC
Permalink
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.

Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.

Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.

He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of my
officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the owner
know, no matter what time of day or night.

"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html

I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is slicing a
burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones
before acting?
Mrcheerful
2010-02-12 09:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of my
officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the owner
know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is slicing a
burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones
before acting?
and once again this is putting the pressure on the law abiding rather than
the criminal.

anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely to get
thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
Bod
2010-02-12 09:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrcheerful
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of my
officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the owner
know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is slicing a
burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones
before acting?
and once again this is putting the pressure on the law abiding rather than
the criminal.
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely to get
thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
It seems a strange thing to do, you'd think that common sense would
prevail. By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the middle
of the night.

Bod
Harry Merrick
2010-02-12 10:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of
my officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the
owner know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is
slicing a burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones
before acting?
Ask for their Warrant Card ID. Or ask them to wait outside whilst you 'phone
their station.
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
and once again this is putting the pressure on the law abiding
rather than the criminal.
It IS the law abiding who fail, dismally, to secure their property! - The
police are after all only trying to reduce crime, which they have to sort
out after the event and the house goodies or car have long since been
disposed of!
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely to
get thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
Which is fine if you are strapping lad with street fighting creds! "Most"
householders are anything but that. How many householders have been killed
by doing precisely that??
Post by Bod
It seems a strange thing to do, you'd think that common sense would
prevail.
"WHAT" common sense? Most examples of Joe Soap public have absolutely NO
common sense at all!
Post by Bod
By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the
middle of the night.
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes broken
into! The poor bloody police are on a loser/loser on this one! They cannot
please anyone, no matter what they try to do! - As for frightening
householders in the middle of the night, well, wouldn't you rather be
frightened by the police rather than be knifed and beaten by some thug?
--
Harry Merrick.
Bod
2010-02-12 10:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Merrick
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of
my officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the
owner know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is
slicing a burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones
before acting?
Ask for their Warrant Card ID. Or ask them to wait outside whilst you
'phone their station.
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
and once again this is putting the pressure on the law abiding
rather than the criminal.
It IS the law abiding who fail, dismally, to secure their property! -
The police are after all only trying to reduce crime, which they have to
sort out after the event and the house goodies or car have long since
been disposed of!
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely to
get thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
Which is fine if you are strapping lad with street fighting creds!
"Most" householders are anything but that. How many householders have
been killed by doing precisely that??
Post by Bod
It seems a strange thing to do, you'd think that common sense would
prevail.
"WHAT" common sense? Most examples of Joe Soap public have absolutely NO
common sense at all!
Post by Bod
By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the
middle of the night.
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes broken
into! The poor bloody police are on a loser/loser on this one! They
cannot please anyone, no matter what they try to do! - As for
frightening householders in the middle of the night, well, wouldn't you
rather be frightened by the police rather than be knifed and beaten by
some thug?
Point taken about the dilemma for the police, but 'I' would not be
awoken, simply because my car is locked and alarmed and all doors and
windows etc in the house are always secure.
If other people are that stupid to leave themselves at risk and act so
stupidly, perhaps letting them fall prey to burglars maybe the only wake
up call they need to bring them to their senses...yes?

Bod
Mrcheerful
2010-02-12 10:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
Post by Harry Merrick
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall
foul of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers
on what they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take.
It's a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers
get a mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to
any of my officers that if they see an insecure car or house to
let the owner know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and
be grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is
slicing a burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as
police persons, how can a householder be certain that these are
real ones before acting?
Ask for their Warrant Card ID. Or ask them to wait outside whilst you
'phone their station.
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
and once again this is putting the pressure on the law abiding
rather than the criminal.
It IS the law abiding who fail, dismally, to secure their property! -
The police are after all only trying to reduce crime, which they
have to sort out after the event and the house goodies or car have
long since been disposed of!
Post by Bod
Post by Mrcheerful
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely
to get thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
Which is fine if you are strapping lad with street fighting creds!
"Most" householders are anything but that. How many householders have
been killed by doing precisely that??
Post by Bod
It seems a strange thing to do, you'd think that common sense would
prevail.
"WHAT" common sense? Most examples of Joe Soap public have
absolutely NO common sense at all!
Post by Bod
By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the
middle of the night.
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes
broken into! The poor bloody police are on a loser/loser on this
one! They cannot please anyone, no matter what they try to do! - As
for frightening householders in the middle of the night, well,
wouldn't you rather be frightened by the police rather than be
knifed and beaten by some thug?
Point taken about the dilemma for the police, but 'I' would not be
awoken, simply because my car is locked and alarmed and all doors and
windows etc in the house are always secure.
If other people are that stupid to leave themselves at risk and act so
stupidly, perhaps letting them fall prey to burglars maybe the only
wake up call they need to bring them to their senses...yes?
Bod
I have an idea, the police go around quietly, on foot looking for burglars,
when the burglars are caught give them a prison sentence. If there are not
enough prison places then build some more. Make prison unpleasant but not
mediaeval, no tv, no drugs, simple food, access to education, but no keep
fit equipment or games rooms. Repeat offenders get sentences doubled
without parole.
Colonel Colt
2010-02-13 11:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Point taken about the dilemma for the police, but 'I' would not be awoken,
simply because my car is locked and alarmed and all doors and windows etc
in the house are always secure.
If other people are that stupid to leave themselves at risk and act so
stupidly, perhaps letting them fall prey to burglars maybe the only wake
up call they need to bring them to their senses...yes?
Perhaps they should just jail them for aggravated victimhood, eh, Bod. It
is no wonder this country is a fucking sewer when so many people in it
actively and psychopathically hate the innocent.
Maria
2010-02-12 13:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Merrick
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes broken
into! The poor bloody police are on a loser/loser on this one! They
cannot please anyone, no matter what they try to do! - As for
frightening householders in the middle of the night, well, wouldn't you
rather be frightened by the police rather than be knifed and beaten by
some thug?
No Harry - I would rather go to bed thinking that nobody will attempt to
break into my house. I have some kind of anxiety problem, and even a tap
on the front door late at night makes me jump out of my skin and my
heart pound. I don't want to have to start questioning whether the
person who has broken in means me any harm or not - that alone makes me
more vulnerable to someone who breaks in who does mean me harm.

This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether the
doors are locked or not. We are just building an ever more paranoid
society in my view.
Mentalguy2k8
2010-02-12 14:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether the
doors are locked or not. We are just building an ever more paranoid
society in my view.
By telling people that leaving windows and doors ajar or unlocked might lead
to you being burgled??? That *is* what is likely to happen, it isn't a
paranoid fantasy invented by the Old Bill.

Burglars operate the same way as the Police will in this situation.... if
your house and car are secure, they'll quickly move on to find one that
isn't. You may say that nobody comes into your house uninvited,
unfortunately you don't have that choice.
Maria
2010-02-12 15:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mentalguy2k8
Post by Maria
This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether the
doors are locked or not. We are just building an ever more paranoid
society in my view.
By telling people that leaving windows and doors ajar or unlocked might
lead to you being burgled???
Yes.
Post by Mentalguy2k8
That *is* what is likely to happen, it
isn't a paranoid fantasy invented by the Old Bill.
Yes, and it's wrong.
Post by Mentalguy2k8
Burglars operate the same way as the Police will in this situation....
if your house and car are secure, they'll quickly move on to find one
that isn't. You may say that nobody comes into your house uninvited,
unfortunately you don't have that choice.
I feel that I do have a choice, whether it is a policeman or a burglar.
I risk the possibility that a burglar should try to get in - why should
I have to risk that a policeman might try to get in?!
Everything in society, every community, is based on trust. Why would a
bank lend you money, if they did not believe you would pay it back? Why
would a shopkeeper open up in the morning, if he thought that the next
customer might have a shotgun and a swagbag? Why does anyone risk going
out on the road in a car, when the government tells us daily how many
uninsured and dangerous drivers there are? Why would you leave a young
child all day at school, when the world is allegedly full of
paedophiles? Why would you even venture out onto the streets when it
seems there is a violent yob around every corner? All of these actions
are taken on the basis of trust - trust that no harm will befall you.
If we did not have trust in one another, society would collapse.
That is what we should be fighting to preserve, not the notion that if
you just stay in, lock all the doors and windows and only ever go out
armed to the teeth with knives and guns (if we were allowed), then you
might minimise the risk of being put in harm's way.
What comes after making sure all your doors and windows are locked?
Staying awake all night, shaking with anxiety, in case someone has
worked out how to get in your house anyway? Where does it end?

A healthy and free society has to start from the presumption of
innocence, and to secure that, every effort should be made to catch and
put away criminals who are out to harm people in some way, for as long
as is allowed. That just is not happening - all that is happening is
that people are expected to go to greater lengths, and be more paranoid
than ever, and be more to blame than ever when they become victims of
criminals.
Cynic
2010-02-16 20:29:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:06:44 -0000, "Mentalguy2k8"
Post by Mentalguy2k8
By telling people that leaving windows and doors ajar or unlocked might lead
to you being burgled??? That *is* what is likely to happen, it isn't a
paranoid fantasy invented by the Old Bill.
It *is* pretty much a paranoid fantasy in most places. Contrary to
tabloid hysteria, there is not a burglar walking every street, nor is
every man who dares to talk to a child likely to be a dangerous
predator.
Post by Mentalguy2k8
Burglars operate the same way as the Police will in this situation.... if
your house and car are secure, they'll quickly move on to find one that
isn't. You may say that nobody comes into your house uninvited,
unfortunately you don't have that choice.
Most things you do or fail to do carries a risk of causing you harm.
It is for each adult individual to assess those risks and decide which
they are prepared to accept and which not.

The government's job (and agencies of the government such as the
police) is to give *realistic and accurate* information so that we are
in a position to make an accurate assessment. It is not for the
government to tell us what risks are and are not acceptable.

Instead, our government is intent on giving out hysteric and hyped-up
information that hardly anyone takes seriously, and treating its
citizens like children by deciding what risks we may and may not take.

Incidentally, I haven't had a lock on my door for over half a decade.
--
Cynic
Adrian
2010-02-12 14:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
No Harry - I would rather go to bed thinking that nobody will attempt to
break into my house.
So take basic security precautions.
Post by Maria
I don't want to have to start questioning whether the person who has
broken in means me any harm or not
It's not as if the police are actually going to break in. They're not.
They're merely going to try doors - and, if they're not locked, say "Umm,
excuse me, but you're lucky I found that first..."
Post by Maria
This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether the
doors are locked or not.
Odd. Your previous posts have not suggested you live in such a peaceable
and law-abiding utopia.
Post by Maria
We are just building an ever more paranoid society in my view.
Says the woman whose "heart pounds" if somebody knocks on her door.
Bod
2010-02-12 14:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
No Harry - I would rather go to bed thinking that nobody will attempt to
break into my house.
So take basic security precautions.
Post by Maria
I don't want to have to start questioning whether the person who has
broken in means me any harm or not
It's not as if the police are actually going to break in. They're not.
They're merely going to try doors - and, if they're not locked, say "Umm,
excuse me, but you're lucky I found that first..."
Post by Maria
This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether the
doors are locked or not.
Odd. Your previous posts have not suggested you live in such a peaceable
and law-abiding utopia.
Post by Maria
We are just building an ever more paranoid society in my view.
Says the woman whose "heart pounds" if somebody knocks on her door.
Yes, she's saying it will make her MORE paranoid.

Bod
Adrian
2010-02-12 14:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
We are just building an ever more paranoid society in my view.
Says the woman whose "heart pounds" if somebody knocks on her door.
Yes, she's saying it will make her MORE paranoid.
<shrug> So lock the door... Job done.
Maria
2010-02-12 15:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Bod
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
We are just building an ever more paranoid society in my view.
Says the woman whose "heart pounds" if somebody knocks on her door.
Yes, she's saying it will make her MORE paranoid.
<shrug> So lock the door... Job done.
So no locked houses are ever burgled?
Maria
2010-02-12 15:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Bod
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
We are just building an ever more paranoid society in my view.
Says the woman whose "heart pounds" if somebody knocks on her door.
Yes, she's saying it will make her MORE paranoid.
<shrug> So lock the door... Job done.
So no locked houses are ever burgled?
Reminds me of the car theft situation. Manufacturers have gone out of
their way to make a car almost impossible to break into, so now the
thieves break into the houses to steal the keys...
Ste
2010-02-12 18:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
were
Post by Bod
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
We are just building an ever more paranoid society in my view.
Says the woman whose "heart pounds" if somebody knocks on her door.
Yes, she's saying it will make her MORE paranoid.
<shrug> So lock the door... Job done.
So no locked houses are ever burgled?
Reminds me of the car theft situation. Manufacturers have gone out of
their way to make a car almost impossible to break into, so now the
thieves break into the houses to steal the keys...
I seem to remember a case a few years back, it may have been a foreign
one (Japan maybe?), about a man who fitted his car with a fingerprint
reader, which subsequently led to him having his fingers chopped off
by thieves.
Maria
2010-02-12 15:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
No Harry - I would rather go to bed thinking that nobody will attempt to
break into my house.
So take basic security precautions.
But why should I not be able to sleep with my window wide open on a hot
summer's night? I have done nothing wrong. That is the position I am
trying to defend, if you see what I mean.
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
I don't want to have to start questioning whether the person who has
broken in means me any harm or not
It's not as if the police are actually going to break in. They're not.
They're merely going to try doors - and, if they're not locked, say "Umm,
excuse me, but you're lucky I found that first..."
Well I hope that it stops there, as this seems a step up from their
previous operation of bellowing at people through megaphones if their
doors or windows are open, even in the daytime.
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether the
doors are locked or not.
Odd. Your previous posts have not suggested you live in such a peaceable
and law-abiding utopia.
It isn't that, but it should be. Surely that is what most people except
criminals want, isn't it?
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
We are just building an ever more paranoid society in my view.
Says the woman whose "heart pounds" if somebody knocks on her door.
Did you not read the part about an anxiety problem? It's an autonomic
response - it happens before I have even had time to think about any
threat. It's a simple condition of clinical anxiety, i.e. the fear comes
*after* the attack. I am not actually afraid of anything, but the
response means that I might be less likely to act rationally if
something happens because adrenaline is flowing.
Colonel Colt
2010-02-13 11:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
But why should I not be able to sleep with my window wide open on a hot
summer's night? I have done nothing wrong. That is the position I am
trying to defend, if you see what I mean.
Because you live in a police state that is run for the convenience of the
police. The idea that you are free to do what you will provided you do not
active harm another is pretty antique now.
AlanG
2010-02-12 17:13:24 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:29:30 +0000, Maria
Post by Maria
Post by Harry Merrick
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes broken
into! The poor bloody police are on a loser/loser on this one! They
cannot please anyone, no matter what they try to do! - As for
frightening householders in the middle of the night, well, wouldn't you
rather be frightened by the police rather than be knifed and beaten by
some thug?
No Harry - I would rather go to bed thinking that nobody will attempt to
break into my house. I have some kind of anxiety problem, and even a tap
on the front door late at night makes me jump out of my skin and my
heart pound. I don't want to have to start questioning whether the
person who has broken in means me any harm or not - that alone makes me
more vulnerable to someone who breaks in who does mean me harm.
Always act on the assumption that an intruder in your home is bent on
causing you serious injury. Then you can make the choice to fight or
flee. Whichever is safest for you and the other occupants
Post by Maria
This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether the
doors are locked or not. We are just building an ever more paranoid
society in my view.
The politicians, police and press have been doing this for at least 30
years. Think back and try and remember when the private security
industry became so prominent.

They were hardly seen in the 1970s or earlier.
steve robinson
2010-02-12 17:44:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Post by Harry Merrick
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes
broken into! The poor bloody police are on a loser/loser on this
one! They cannot please anyone, no matter what they try to do! -
As for frightening householders in the middle of the night,
well, wouldn't you rather be frightened by the police rather
than be knifed and beaten by some thug?
No Harry - I would rather go to bed thinking that nobody will
attempt to break into my house. I have some kind of anxiety
problem, and even a tap on the front door late at night makes me
jump out of my skin and my heart pound. I don't want to have to
start questioning whether the person who has broken in means me any
harm or not - that alone makes me more vulnerable to someone who
breaks in who does mean me harm.
This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether
the doors are locked or not. We are just building an ever more
paranoid society in my view.
What happens if you end up braining the officer with a baseball bat
do you

a) get a holiday at her majestys pleasure

b) a pat on the back for apprehending an intruder which is what the
police officer is

c) laughed at for being so gullable when the local scumbags realise
impersonating a PO may pay off
Harry Merrick
2010-02-12 17:45:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Post by Harry Merrick
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes
broken into! The poor bloody police are on a loser/loser on this
one! They cannot please anyone, no matter what they try to do! - As
for frightening householders in the middle of the night, well,
wouldn't you rather be frightened by the police rather than be
knifed and beaten by some thug?
No Harry - I would rather go to bed thinking that nobody will attempt
to break into my house.
Then, you most probably make sure that youre house is completely secure
before you go to bed. The Police will not go near you if there is no reason.
Post by Maria
I have some kind of anxiety problem, and even
a tap on the front door late at night makes me jump out of my skin
and my heart pound. I don't want to have to start questioning whether
the person who has broken in means me any harm or not - that alone
makes me more vulnerable to someone who breaks in who does mean me
harm.
Which is exactly why the Police are on patrol! To prevent you from being
broken into!
Post by Maria
This is my house - nobody comes in without my permission, whether the
doors are locked or not. We are just building an ever more paranoid
society in my view.
Everyone's house is exactly the same to them. A man's home is his castle,
and should be treated as such. However, you cannot ever be 100% sure. Which
is why I want to see more police. The paranoid society you talk about is
directly reflected by the riff-raff we have in that society prepared to rob
and murder for gain. Interestingly, mostly due to Asian migrants.
--
Harry Merrick.
Lou Ravi
2010-02-12 18:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Merrick
Post by Bod
By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the
middle of the night.
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes
broken into!
There is no 'breaking in' if the door is unlocked and the felon walks in.
I'm not even sure that it is a crime unless he steals something, just
trespass perhaps but that is a civil matter.
Ste
2010-02-12 19:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lou Ravi
Post by Harry Merrick
Post by Bod
By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the
middle of the night.
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes
broken into!
There is no 'breaking in' if the door is unlocked and the felon walks in.
I'm not even sure that it is a crime unless he steals something, just
trespass perhaps but that is a civil matter.
It's a criminal matter if he enters and *intends* to steal. There are
also a number of other criminal attempts and acts which would be
satisfied by effecting entry onto the premises - irrespective of
whether the door was locked or not.

That said, it is not a crime to simply stumble into the wrong house by
accident - that would, indeed, be mere trespass.
Lou Ravi
2010-02-12 21:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ste
Post by Lou Ravi
Post by Harry Merrick
Post by Bod
By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave
their cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in
the middle of the night.
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes
broken into!
There is no 'breaking in' if the door is unlocked and the felon
walks in. I'm not even sure that it is a crime unless he steals
something, just trespass perhaps but that is a civil matter.
It's a criminal matter if he enters and *intends* to steal.
No, I don't think so. How do you prove 'intent'?
Post by Ste
There are
also a number of other criminal attempts and acts which would be
satisfied by effecting entry onto the premises - irrespective of
whether the door was locked or not.
That said, it is not a crime to simply stumble into the wrong house by
accident - that would, indeed, be mere trespass.
Yes but in that case I'll ask again, how do you prove intent? If the bloke
has a jemmy, perhaps, but if he doesn't?
Ste
2010-02-13 14:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lou Ravi
Post by Ste
Post by Lou Ravi
Post by Harry Merrick
Post by Bod
By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave
their cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in
the middle of the night.
By which time, undoubtedly, the cars would be gone and the homes
broken into!
There is no 'breaking in' if the door is unlocked and the felon
walks in. I'm not even sure that it is a crime unless he steals
something, just trespass perhaps but that is a civil matter.
It's a criminal matter if he enters and *intends* to steal.
No, I don't think so.
I think you'll find you're quite wrong.
Post by Lou Ravi
How do you prove 'intent'?
Perhaps if he confesses. Of course, the question of proving the crime
is quite distinct from whether something is a crime or not.
Post by Lou Ravi
Post by Ste
There are
also a number of other criminal attempts and acts which would be
satisfied by effecting entry onto the premises - irrespective of
whether the door was locked or not.
That said, it is not a crime to simply stumble into the wrong house by
accident - that would, indeed, be mere trespass.
Yes but in that case I'll ask again, how do you prove intent? If the bloke
has a jemmy, perhaps, but if he doesn't?
Who cares? The question was whether these acts were criminal or not,
and they most certainly are.

Indeed, come to think of it, I actually know a guy who got done for
"trespassing with intent", because he entered an unsecure building to
see if he could strip out any copper, and when questioned he admitted
the fact.
aaa
2010-02-14 18:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Merrick
Post by Mrcheerful
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely
to get thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
Which is fine if you are strapping lad with street fighting creds!
"Most" householders are anything but that. How many householders have
been killed by doing precisely that??
The problem will be that weaker people, who might want to sleep with
their window open on a warm night, might be very frightened, and
respond with more lethal force,
(a) like throwing a litle of Sulphuric Acid (drain cleaner) in
officer's face or
(b) using a large knive, kept near them while sleeping etc

(before realising that they are the Police)
Harry Merrick
2010-02-15 16:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by aaa
Post by Harry Merrick
Post by Mrcheerful
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely
to get thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
Which is fine if you are strapping lad with street fighting creds!
"Most" householders are anything but that. How many householders have
been killed by doing precisely that??
The problem will be that weaker people, who might want to sleep with
their window open on a warm night, might be very frightened, and
respond with more lethal force,
(a) like throwing a litle of Sulphuric Acid (drain cleaner) in
officer's face or
(b) using a large knive, kept near them while sleeping etc
(before realising that they are the Police)
LOL!! But I hardly think the police are likely to suddenly appear at your
open bedroom window before making it abundantly clear who they really are
first!! FAR more likely that they ring your front door bell and knock. In
any case, if one lives in such a bad neighbourhood that it is actually
dangerous to leave your bedroom window ajar, then surely one would have a
locking device and alarm that goes off as soon as it is interfered with?? -
I would.
--
Harry Merrick.
John Turner
2010-02-12 11:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
It seems a strange thing to do, you'd think that common sense would
prevail. By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but wait
untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their cars
unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the middle of the
night.
That sounds like a far more sensible approach, but I suppose the original
plan reinforces the police's perceived power.

John.
Adrian
2010-02-12 11:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Turner
Post by Bod
It seems a strange thing to do, you'd think that common sense would
prevail. By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the middle
of the night.
That sounds like a far more sensible approach, but I suppose the
original plan reinforces the police's perceived power.
There's at least three good reasons to do it there and then.

1 - Manpower. You've got a plod on the scene. But, no, he should go back
to the station then have a PCSO wander out the next day.

2 - Effectiveness. Which is going to have the greater effect on your
actions? A note through the (locked) door when you get back from work the
next day, saying "Think you left this unlocked last night... Silly boy" -
or a bloke in uniform stood at the end of the bed saying "OK, looks like
it's all clear in here"?

...and, probably most importantly...

3 - You ring the police to report that you've been burgled overnight.
Just as you hang up the phone, a PCSO knocks on the door and says "Umm,
your house might be insecure - here's a leaflet. Ooh. That's odd. The
notes my colleague made yesterday evening mentioned your wallet, car keys
and telly still being here at that time. You must have been done over
afterwards...". Not going to be happy, are you?
Bod
2010-02-12 11:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by John Turner
Post by Bod
It seems a strange thing to do, you'd think that common sense would
prevail. By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the middle
of the night.
That sounds like a far more sensible approach, but I suppose the
original plan reinforces the police's perceived power.
There's at least three good reasons to do it there and then.
1 - Manpower. You've got a plod on the scene. But, no, he should go back
to the station then have a PCSO wander out the next day.
2 - Effectiveness. Which is going to have the greater effect on your
actions? A note through the (locked) door when you get back from work the
next day, saying "Think you left this unlocked last night... Silly boy" -
or a bloke in uniform stood at the end of the bed saying "OK, looks like
it's all clear in here"?
...and, probably most importantly...
3 - You ring the police to report that you've been burgled overnight.
Just as you hang up the phone, a PCSO knocks on the door and says "Umm,
your house might be insecure - here's a leaflet. Ooh. That's odd. The
notes my colleague made yesterday evening mentioned your wallet, car keys
and telly still being here at that time. You must have been done over
afterwards...". Not going to be happy, are you?
I suggested, let the police check the cars etc, but not disturb the
owners. If the police are in the area overnight, how many burglars are
going to commit a burglary with police prowling around?

Bod
John Turner
2010-02-12 11:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
I suggested, let the police check the cars etc, but not disturb the
owners. If the police are in the area overnight, how many burglars are
going to commit a burglary with police prowling around?
Exactly, and the added presence of coppers or PCSOs wandering around during
the following day would reinforce that.

John.
Adrian
2010-02-12 12:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
I suggested, let the police check the cars etc, but not disturb the
owners. If the police are in the area overnight, how many burglars are
going to commit a burglary with police prowling around?
So were you planning on having blanket coverage of the area, with plods
able to see all parked cars/front doors at all times?

Or would it be straightforward for Mr Burglar to just discreetly follow
plod about, and dip in as soon as he comes out of an insecure house and
turns the corner?
John Turner
2010-02-12 11:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
There's at least three good reasons to do it there and then.
1 - Manpower. You've got a plod on the scene. But, no, he should go back
to the station then have a PCSO wander out the next day.
I'd have throught that having a PCSO wandering around during the day is
exactly WHY they exist - a visible presence on the streets.

john.
Maria
2010-02-12 14:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Turner
Post by Adrian
There's at least three good reasons to do it there and then.
1 - Manpower. You've got a plod on the scene. But, no, he should go back
to the station then have a PCSO wander out the next day.
I'd have throught that having a PCSO wandering around during the day is
exactly WHY they exist - a visible presence on the streets.
Criminals think they are a joke, in my experience, partly due to the
number of media reports suggesting that they are not confident enough to
exercise any powers.
John Turner
2010-02-12 14:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Criminals think they are a joke, in my experience, partly due to the
number of media reports suggesting that they are not confident enough to
exercise any powers.
I don't think they have much in the way of powers to exercise. It's their
uniformed presence on the streets that is supposed to be the deterrent.

John.
Colonel Colt
2010-02-13 11:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Criminals think they are a joke, in my experience, partly due to the
number of media reports suggesting that they are not confident enough to
exercise any powers.
Except when they are dealing with photographers taking snaps of tourist
attractions. Then they are very sure indeed of their powers, even though
they are completely and utterly wrong about what those powers might be!
E.g. they think they have the legal right to demand photographic
identification from anyone with a camera in a piblic place. They think they
have a right to bawl abusively at anyone taking a photograph in a public
place.
Maria
2010-02-12 13:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by John Turner
Post by Bod
It seems a strange thing to do, you'd think that common sense would
prevail. By all means go around observing for unlocked cars etc, but
wait untill the next day to inform the silly buggers who leave their
cars unlocked, rather than wake them up and frighten them in the middle
of the night.
That sounds like a far more sensible approach, but I suppose the
original plan reinforces the police's perceived power.
There's at least three good reasons to do it there and then.
1 - Manpower. You've got a plod on the scene. But, no, he should go back
to the station then have a PCSO wander out the next day.
2 - Effectiveness. Which is going to have the greater effect on your
actions? A note through the (locked) door when you get back from work the
next day, saying "Think you left this unlocked last night... Silly boy" -
or a bloke in uniform stood at the end of the bed saying "OK, looks like
it's all clear in here"?
...and, probably most importantly...
3 - You ring the police to report that you've been burgled overnight.
Just as you hang up the phone, a PCSO knocks on the door and says "Umm,
your house might be insecure - here's a leaflet. Ooh. That's odd. The
notes my colleague made yesterday evening mentioned your wallet, car keys
and telly still being here at that time. You must have been done over
afterwards...". Not going to be happy, are you?
In my view we need to review the notion of responsibility. The police
are supposed to be responsible for the policing of public areas, my
house is my responsibility. If I am broken into because the door is left
open, then the intruder is to blame, and the police are to blame for not
apprehending known criminals for years, and the CPS are to blame for not
prosecuting when they should, and the courts are to blame for giving out
pathetic sentences meaning that these people are left at large.

I believe that the innocent have a right to walk the streets or sit in
their homes without fear - that is why we have police and a justice
system in the first place. Because the police and justice system are not
fulfilling their responsibilities, innocent people are having to take
extraordinary measures to protect themselves from criminality.
Adrian
2010-02-12 14:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
In my view we need to review the notion of responsibility. The police
are supposed to be responsible for the policing of public areas, my
house is my responsibility.
So you won't expect them to come running if you get burgled?

What about all those "Crime Prevention Officers" and anti-burglary
campaigns that have been run over the years?
Post by Maria
If I am broken into because the door is left open, then the intruder is
to blame
Yes, of course. Nobody's suggesting otherwise.

But you have to accept some responsibility for making it so bloody easy
for them.
Post by Maria
and the police are to blame for not apprehending known criminals for
years
Difficult, if "policing... your house" is not their responsibility. How
do they know who they are?
Post by Maria
and the CPS are to blame for not prosecuting when they should
Difficult if the police aren't catching 'em, because it's not their
problem.
Post by Maria
and the courts are to blame for giving out pathetic sentences
Difficult if the CPS aren't prosecuting 'em, because the police aren't
catching 'em, because you regard your house as your responsibility.
Post by Maria
meaning that these people are left at large.
What people?

After all, the police don't even know you've been burgled - let alone who
did it, so the CPS can't build a case, for the courts to put 'em away.
Post by Maria
Because the police and justice system are not fulfilling their
responsibilities, innocent people are having to take extraordinary
measures to protect themselves from criminality.
Locking your front door at night is hardly "extraordinary measures".
Bod
2010-02-12 14:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
In my view we need to review the notion of responsibility. The police
are supposed to be responsible for the policing of public areas, my
house is my responsibility.
So you won't expect them to come running if you get burgled?
What about all those "Crime Prevention Officers" and anti-burglary
campaigns that have been run over the years?
Post by Maria
If I am broken into because the door is left open, then the intruder is
to blame
Yes, of course. Nobody's suggesting otherwise.
But you have to accept some responsibility for making it so bloody easy
for them.
Post by Maria
and the police are to blame for not apprehending known criminals for
years
Difficult, if "policing... your house" is not their responsibility. How
do they know who they are?
Post by Maria
and the CPS are to blame for not prosecuting when they should
Difficult if the police aren't catching 'em, because it's not their
problem.
Post by Maria
and the courts are to blame for giving out pathetic sentences
Difficult if the CPS aren't prosecuting 'em, because the police aren't
catching 'em, because you regard your house as your responsibility.
Post by Maria
meaning that these people are left at large.
What people?
After all, the police don't even know you've been burgled - let alone who
did it, so the CPS can't build a case, for the courts to put 'em away.
Post by Maria
Because the police and justice system are not fulfilling their
responsibilities, innocent people are having to take extraordinary
measures to protect themselves from criminality.
Locking your front door at night is hardly "extraordinary measures".
Anyone stupid and careless enough to leave their front door or car
unlocked, almost deserves to be burgled.
Let them learn the hard way, by being burgled.

Bod
Adrian
2010-02-12 14:52:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
Anyone stupid and careless enough to leave their front door or car
unlocked, almost deserves to be burgled. Let them learn the hard way, by
being burgled.
Fine. Do you expect the police to try to identify those responsible?

After all, it seems that they shouldn't bother if an unattended car is
stolen because the keys are left in it...
Bod
2010-02-12 15:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Bod
Anyone stupid and careless enough to leave their front door or car
unlocked, almost deserves to be burgled. Let them learn the hard way, by
being burgled.
Fine. Do you expect the police to try to identify those responsible?
After all, it seems that they shouldn't bother if an unattended car is
stolen because the keys are left in it...
Ha! Years ago I had a van broken into and a large and very expensive
drill nicked from it. I phoned the police on a monday morning and told
them that I had not touched anything. "Sorry, we can't come down to see
you untill friday".
My son had his house broken into, he called the police, they came down
and said they could see fingerprints on the window frames, they even
said they probably knew who it was because of a spate of similar
burglaries. "Sorry but it will be hard to get a conviction".
They didn't even dust for prints.

Bod
Maria
2010-02-12 15:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
Post by Adrian
Post by Bod
Anyone stupid and careless enough to leave their front door or car
unlocked, almost deserves to be burgled. Let them learn the hard way, by
being burgled.
Fine. Do you expect the police to try to identify those responsible?
After all, it seems that they shouldn't bother if an unattended car is
stolen because the keys are left in it...
Ha! Years ago I had a van broken into and a large and very expensive
drill nicked from it. I phoned the police on a monday morning and told
them that I had not touched anything. "Sorry, we can't come down to see
you untill friday".
My son had his house broken into, he called the police, they came down
and said they could see fingerprints on the window frames, they even
said they probably knew who it was because of a spate of similar
burglaries. "Sorry but it will be hard to get a conviction".
They didn't even dust for prints.
And this is the *only* reason we are forced to live like this.
Maria
2010-02-12 15:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Bod
Anyone stupid and careless enough to leave their front door or car
unlocked, almost deserves to be burgled. Let them learn the hard way, by
being burgled.
Fine. Do you expect the police to try to identify those responsible?
After all, it seems that they shouldn't bother if an unattended car is
stolen because the keys are left in it...
Why should they not bother? Because no crime has been committed?
It's hard enough getting the police to take an interest in a theft or
burglary where the property owner *did* take all precautions.
Adrian
2010-02-12 15:38:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Bod
Anyone stupid and careless enough to leave their front door or car
unlocked, almost deserves to be burgled. Let them learn the hard way,
by being burgled.
Fine. Do you expect the police to try to identify those responsible?
After all, it seems that they shouldn't bother if an unattended car is
stolen because the keys are left in it...
Why should they not bother? Because no crime has been committed? It's
hard enough getting the police to take an interest in a theft or
burglary where the property owner *did* take all precautions.
Have you been ignoring the £150 thread completely?
Maria
2010-02-12 15:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
In my view we need to review the notion of responsibility. The police
are supposed to be responsible for the policing of public areas, my
house is my responsibility.
So you won't expect them to come running if you get burgled?
What about all those "Crime Prevention Officers" and anti-burglary
campaigns that have been run over the years?
Post by Maria
If I am broken into because the door is left open, then the intruder is
to blame
Yes, of course. Nobody's suggesting otherwise.
But you have to accept some responsibility for making it so bloody easy
for them.
Post by Maria
and the police are to blame for not apprehending known criminals for
years
Difficult, if "policing... your house" is not their responsibility. How
do they know who they are?
Post by Maria
and the CPS are to blame for not prosecuting when they should
Difficult if the police aren't catching 'em, because it's not their
problem.
Post by Maria
and the courts are to blame for giving out pathetic sentences
Difficult if the CPS aren't prosecuting 'em, because the police aren't
catching 'em, because you regard your house as your responsibility.
Post by Maria
meaning that these people are left at large.
What people?
After all, the police don't even know you've been burgled - let alone who
did it, so the CPS can't build a case, for the courts to put 'em away.
Post by Maria
Because the police and justice system are not fulfilling their
responsibilities, innocent people are having to take extraordinary
measures to protect themselves from criminality.
Locking your front door at night is hardly "extraordinary measures".
Anyone stupid and careless enough to leave their front door or car
unlocked, almost deserves to be burgled.
Why?
Cynic
2010-02-16 20:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bod
Anyone stupid and careless enough to leave their front door or car
unlocked, almost deserves to be burgled.
Let them learn the hard way, by being burgled.
The only people I have known with that attitude are thieves.

The unsaid statements that follow from the one you have made are,
"Therefore it is perfectly OK if *I* burgle the house. After all, we
have already established that it is what the owner deserves. And as I
have said, they will learn from the experience, therefore I'm doing
them a favour."
--
Cynic
Maria
2010-02-12 15:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
In my view we need to review the notion of responsibility. The police
are supposed to be responsible for the policing of public areas, my
house is my responsibility.
So you won't expect them to come running if you get burgled?
Why not? That's their job. Are you saying that if someone chooses to
break in my home, steal my things, then it's my fault?
Are you saying that if I go out in a sexy outfit, and then I get raped,
it's my fault?
Post by Adrian
What about all those "Crime Prevention Officers" and anti-burglary
campaigns that have been run over the years?
What about them?
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
If I am broken into because the door is left open, then the intruder is
to blame
Yes, of course. Nobody's suggesting otherwise.
Then why wouldn't or shouldn't I expect the police to come if I am burgled?
Post by Adrian
But you have to accept some responsibility for making it so bloody easy
for them.
Why?
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
and the police are to blame for not apprehending known criminals for
years
Difficult, if "policing... your house" is not their responsibility. How
do they know who they are?
Nobody is expected to police my house - that's my job. Their job is to
police the streets as a deterrent and tackle criminals. That's what they
are for, isn't it?
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
and the CPS are to blame for not prosecuting when they should
Difficult if the police aren't catching 'em, because it's not their
problem.
I can drag up so many cases showing that the police *do* catch them, the
CPS *do* bring a case, and then the courts let them out on bail, or give
them flimsy sentences. Some people have been killed by these 'mistakes',
and as I discussed in an earlier thread, my best friend's son is
terrified to go out because his attackers (large spanner in the head,
and kicked in the head until unconscious - two separate occasions) have
been to court, but been let out on bail. That kind of thing.
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
and the courts are to blame for giving out pathetic sentences
Difficult if the CPS aren't prosecuting 'em, because the police aren't
catching 'em, because you regard your house as your responsibility.
Please see above. The fact is that *because* they are not being caught
or imprisoned, I have to live like a paranoid loon. That is what I am
objecting to.
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
meaning that these people are left at large.
What people?
The criminals that the courts let out/off/or who are not prosecuted
until they have committed 25 offences or something.
Post by Adrian
After all, the police don't even know you've been burgled - let alone who
did it, so the CPS can't build a case, for the courts to put 'em away.
Now you've lost me.
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
Because the police and justice system are not fulfilling their
responsibilities, innocent people are having to take extraordinary
measures to protect themselves from criminality.
Locking your front door at night is hardly "extraordinary measures".
Go anywhere in the developing world, which is allegedly full of
uncontrolled criminals, rapists and murderers, and see how many homes
even have locks.
Adrian
2010-02-12 15:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
In my view we need to review the notion of responsibility. The police
are supposed to be responsible for the policing of public areas, my
house is my responsibility.
So you won't expect them to come running if you get burgled?
Why not? That's their job.
Ah. So you're moving away from "public places - their responsibility, my
house - my responsibility"?

Can't have it both ways.
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
If I am broken into because the door is left open, then the intruder
is to blame
Yes, of course. Nobody's suggesting otherwise.
Then why wouldn't or shouldn't I expect the police to come if I am burgled?
Because your house is, apparently, your responsibility. Not theirs.
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
and the police are to blame for not apprehending known criminals for
years
Difficult, if "policing... your house" is not their responsibility. How
do they know who they are?
Nobody is expected to police my house - that's my job.
I do wish you'd make your mind up. Two seconds ago, it was your job. Then
you wanted to pass it off to the police. Now it's yours again.
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
and the CPS are to blame for not prosecuting when they should
Difficult if the police aren't catching 'em, because it's not their
problem.
I can drag up so many cases showing that the police *do* catch them, the
CPS *do* bring a case, and then the courts let them out on bail
<sigh>
This whole "innocent until PROVEN guilty" thing is so inconvenient, isn't
it? I mean - he _looks_ shifty. Surely that's good enough for a life
sentence? Evidence? Pah. His eyes are too close together.
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
Because the police and justice system are not fulfilling their
responsibilities, innocent people are having to take extraordinary
measures to protect themselves from criminality.
Locking your front door at night is hardly "extraordinary measures".
Go anywhere in the developing world, which is allegedly full of
uncontrolled criminals, rapists and murderers, and see how many homes
even have locks.
<sigh>
Then ponder on how many of those houses have big tellies and laptops and
£30k cars with high security alarms requiring the keys.
Maria
2010-02-12 15:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
In my view we need to review the notion of responsibility. The police
are supposed to be responsible for the policing of public areas, my
house is my responsibility.
So you won't expect them to come running if you get burgled?
Why not? That's their job.
Ah. So you're moving away from "public places - their responsibility, my
house - my responsibility"?
Can't have it both ways.
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
If I am broken into because the door is left open, then the intruder
is to blame
Yes, of course. Nobody's suggesting otherwise.
Then why wouldn't or shouldn't I expect the police to come if I am burgled?
Because your house is, apparently, your responsibility. Not theirs.
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
and the police are to blame for not apprehending known criminals for
years
Difficult, if "policing... your house" is not their responsibility. How
do they know who they are?
Nobody is expected to police my house - that's my job.
I do wish you'd make your mind up. Two seconds ago, it was your job. Then
you wanted to pass it off to the police. Now it's yours again.
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
and the CPS are to blame for not prosecuting when they should
Difficult if the police aren't catching 'em, because it's not their
problem.
I can drag up so many cases showing that the police *do* catch them, the
CPS *do* bring a case, and then the courts let them out on bail
<sigh>
This whole "innocent until PROVEN guilty" thing is so inconvenient, isn't
it? I mean - he _looks_ shifty. Surely that's good enough for a life
sentence? Evidence? Pah. His eyes are too close together.
Please - this is what I am talking about.
http://www.northantset.co.uk/news/Youth39s-sixyear-wave-of-offences.6067073.jp
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
Post by Adrian
Post by Maria
Because the police and justice system are not fulfilling their
responsibilities, innocent people are having to take extraordinary
measures to protect themselves from criminality.
Locking your front door at night is hardly "extraordinary measures".
Go anywhere in the developing world, which is allegedly full of
uncontrolled criminals, rapists and murderers, and see how many homes
even have locks.
<sigh>
Then ponder on how many of those houses have big tellies and laptops and
£30k cars with high security alarms requiring the keys.
I haven't got any of those things, but have been broken (locked shed)
into three times - no the police didn't come. I didn't even get a crime
or incident number.
Maria
2010-02-12 13:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrcheerful
and once again this is putting the pressure on the law abiding rather than
the criminal.
Agreed.
Post by Mrcheerful
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely to get
thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
I am expecting a similar initiative any time now (Northamptonshire) -
this is the county where they trialled shouting into people's houses
with megaphones, and walking in through unlocked doors and windows
during daylight hours.
Colonel Colt
2010-02-13 11:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrcheerful
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely to get
thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
And if you thumped a filth boy attempting to break into your house, you
might end up dead. Given your attitude toward's police violence against the
innocent, that would be richly comic.
Mrcheerful
2010-02-13 13:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colonel Colt
Post by Mrcheerful
anyone that I can't recognise interfering with my stuff is likely to
get thumped with something , lucky I don't live in that area.
And if you thumped a filth boy attempting to break into your house,
you might end up dead. Given your attitude toward's police violence
against the innocent, that would be richly comic.
Not comic at all, just protecting my stuff, and as I said, if I can't
recognise them then they are likely to get hurt, a properly uniformed
constable would be unlikely to get hurt since it should be clear who he was.

in general the police are not violent towards the innocent, and in the heat
of the moment there will always be occasions when innocent bystanders get
hurt, but mostly those that are hurt are deliberately there or are provoking
a problem.
Jethro
2010-02-12 12:04:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of my
officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the owner
know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglarie...
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is slicing a
burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones
before acting?
Actually this plan will stop the second a wily householder reports his
wallet was emptied after a policeman was in his house. Alternatively,
some householder hidden CCTV will catch the cops doing something that
they *really* wouldn't want to be seen on the news ...
Mentalguy2k8
2010-02-12 13:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of my
officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the owner
know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is slicing a
burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones before
acting?
Yeah, probably best to let people leave all their windows and doors open and
unlocked. If they're that stupid, fuck 'em. Presumably they won't
subsequently stamp their feet and whine about Police indifference when a
gang of pikeys take everything they own through their own stupidity.

It must be easier for the Police to sit at the station out of the cold with
a nice cuppa while people get burgled, then use their telepathic powers to
catch the burglars a few days later and recover the stolen candelabras from
their stripey swag-bags.
Maria
2010-02-12 14:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mentalguy2k8
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of my
officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the owner
know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is slicing a
burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones
before acting?
Yeah, probably best to let people leave all their windows and doors open
and unlocked. If they're that stupid, fuck 'em.
Actually I agree. I just don't want to support the notion of prevention
of crime being on the individual. It is the reason why there is no trust
left in our community (yes I do believe we have one, just!)
Post by Mentalguy2k8
Presumably they won't
subsequently stamp their feet and whine about Police indifference when a
gang of pikeys take everything they own through their own stupidity.
What people whinge about is that the police just don't come when they
are called, don't catch criminals, and that the courts won't put them
away to keep the streets safe. True or not, that is their perception.
If we had no police or courts, we could just arm ourselves and take care
of it ourselves.
Do we want a country where people can sleep safe in their beds without
having to check the house as if it was Fort Knox every day? Or one where
they *can* sleep with the windows open on a hot night and not worry?
Which is the more relaxed and stress-free way of life?
I don't believe it's not possible - looking as houses in Bulgaria, they
have external staircases with no locks on the doors. At some point,
theirs was a fearless and trusting society, even with 15% Roma
population, and is still relatively low on crime, if you discount mafia
activity (which does not tend to affect people in general there).
What it feels like we are doing, is simply giving in to criminality.
Having to secure my property because someone might break in, gives me
the same feeling as having to be searched because some people are
terrorists - it is in opposition to the presumption of innocence.
Post by Mentalguy2k8
It must be easier for the Police to sit at the station out of the cold
with a nice cuppa while people get burgled, then use their telepathic
powers to catch the burglars a few days later and recover the stolen
candelabras from their stripey swag-bags.
Does it always have to be this black and white? Why can they not
mitigate the risks, and we can also do something to mitigate the risks,
while relying on the courts to actually remove the criminals from
society when they get their opportunity? It must be very frustrating for
the police to catch someone, only to find that the CPS won't prosecute,
or the court just lets them out.
Mentalguy2k8
2010-02-12 14:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mentalguy2k8
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Insp Gareth Woods, heading up the operation which begins in
Macclesfield, admits some people will not be happy about the early
hours wake-up calls.
He said: "If we're told to get lost then that's a risk we take. It's
a difficult balance to strike. The bottom line is officers get a
mixed reception when doing anything like this, but I say to any of my
officers that if they see an insecure car or house to let the owner
know, no matter what time of day or night.
"Most reasonable people will say thanks for letting them know and be
grateful."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7213964/Police-stage-burglaries-on-homes.html
I hope that the police remember that reasonable behaviour is slicing a
burglar's ear off with a samurai sword...
Given the number of robberies being done by people dressed as police
persons, how can a householder be certain that these are real ones
before acting?
Yeah, probably best to let people leave all their windows and doors open
and unlocked. If they're that stupid, fuck 'em.
Actually I agree. I just don't want to support the notion of prevention of
crime being on the individual. It is the reason why there is no trust left
in our community (yes I do believe we have one, just!)
Post by Mentalguy2k8
Presumably they won't subsequently stamp their feet and whine about
Police indifference when a gang of pikeys take everything they own
through their own stupidity.
What people whinge about is that the police just don't come when they are
called, don't catch criminals, and that the courts won't put them away to
keep the streets safe. True or not, that is their perception.
How do you suggest the Police find and arrest *every* criminal for *every*
crime?

Maybe if people started understanding that it's the burglar who has forced
us to lock our houses tightly and not the Police, we might get somewhere.
Many people are caught and/or crimes deterred because of Police initiatives,
like drink-driving roadblocks and stop and search. Everyone knows that
leaving your front door unlocked at night may lead to someone walking
through it, so why do they do it? And why do they blame the Police for
trying to cut down the number of burglaries? It's the burglars who burgle,
blame them.
Mrcheerful
2010-02-12 14:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mentalguy2k8
How do you suggest the Police find and arrest *every* criminal for
*every* crime?
go back to small communities with local officers. make drugs free to
addicts. imprison burglars the first time they are caught, double the
sentences for any subsequent offences.
John Turner
2010-02-12 14:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrcheerful
go back to small communities with local officers. make drugs free to
addicts. imprison burglars the first time they are caught, double the
sentences for any subsequent offences.
Bloody namby pamby liberal. ;-)

Along with proper community policing; how about

a) LIFE for dealing in drugs at any level, and total confiscation of all
assets of convicted drug dealers.

b) three strikes and you're permanently out sentencing regime for all
crimes.

c) get the building trade back to work by building more 'uncomfortable'
prisons.

John.
Bod
2010-02-12 14:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Turner
Post by Mrcheerful
go back to small communities with local officers. make drugs free to
addicts. imprison burglars the first time they are caught, double the
sentences for any subsequent offences.
Bloody namby pamby liberal. ;-)
Along with proper community policing; how about
a) LIFE for dealing in drugs at any level, and total confiscation of all
assets of convicted drug dealers.
b) three strikes and you're permanently out sentencing regime for all
crimes.
c) get the building trade back to work by building more 'uncomfortable'
prisons.
John.
Unachievable without locking up all the PC Brigade and shooting all the
EU nuts.

Bod
AlanG
2010-02-12 18:27:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:42:45 -0000, "John Turner"
Post by John Turner
Post by Mrcheerful
go back to small communities with local officers. make drugs free to
addicts. imprison burglars the first time they are caught, double the
sentences for any subsequent offences.
Bloody namby pamby liberal. ;-)
Along with proper community policing; how about
a) LIFE for dealing in drugs at any level, and total confiscation of all
assets of convicted drug dealers.
b) three strikes and you're permanently out sentencing regime for all
crimes.
c) get the building trade back to work by building more 'uncomfortable'
prisons.
And you'll tax us to the hilt to pay for it all
AlanG
2010-02-12 18:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrcheerful
Post by Mentalguy2k8
How do you suggest the Police find and arrest *every* criminal for
*every* crime?
go back to small communities with local officers. make drugs free to
addicts. imprison burglars the first time they are caught, double the
sentences for any subsequent offences.
Something sensible from you at last
Cynic
2010-02-16 20:53:06 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:58:58 -0000, "Mentalguy2k8"
Post by Mentalguy2k8
Yeah, probably best to let people leave all their windows and doors open and
unlocked. If they're that stupid, fuck 'em.
And if a woman is stupid enough to wear a short skirt in public, do
you fuck 'em also?

Leaving windows open may or may not be a "stupid" decision.

It is for the individual to assess the risk of being burgled against
the advantage of leaving a window open.

Just as people have to assess the risk of being killed in a road
traffic accident against the advantage of going to the shops to get a
pint of milk.

I do not expect nor do I *want* the police to be my keeper. I simply
expect them to use all reasonable efforts to detect and catch
criminals.
--
Cynic
Smurf
2010-02-12 16:49:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Sounds like a good reason for mass gun ownership, and they wouldnt come up
with such stupid ideas.
Mrcheerful
2010-02-12 17:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smurf
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Sounds like a good reason for mass gun ownership, and they wouldnt
come up with such stupid ideas.
this is a mad idea, if someone hears someone trying doors and windows in the
middle of the night then there is at some stage going to be a violent
incident ala Kenneth Noy. If I was plod in that area then I would refuse to
be involved with it, as it is outside a policeman's remit.
Ste
2010-02-12 17:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrcheerful
Post by Smurf
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Sounds like a good reason for mass gun ownership, and they wouldnt
come up with such stupid ideas.
this is a mad idea, if someone hears someone trying doors and windows in the
middle of the night then there is at some stage going to be a violent
incident ala Kenneth Noy.  If I was plod in that area then I would refuse to
be involved with it, as it is outside a policeman's remit.
And I seem to remember even Kenny Noye had to get rid of his Rolls
Royce because he couldn't protect it from vandals!
S
2010-02-13 19:26:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mrcheerful
Post by Smurf
Post by Maria
People whose properties are an easy target could be woken in the
middle of the night by police who are promising to try windows and
doors in a bid to cut break-ins.
Code-named Operation Golden, householders in Cheshire who fall foul
of their checks will be roused with a lecture from officers on what
they could have lost.
Sounds like a good reason for mass gun ownership, and they wouldnt
come up with such stupid ideas.
this is a mad idea, if someone hears someone trying doors and windows in the
middle of the night then there is at some stage going to be a violent
incident alaKennethNoy.  If I was plod in that area then I would refuse to
be involved with it, as it is outside a policeman's remit.
A more likely outcome is that a policeman slips or trips in the darks
and hurts himself and Elf&Safety call the whole thing off.

If a policeman broke into my grandfather's house, he (the policeman,
not my grandfather) might end up spending a few hours immobilised by a
couple of large sheepdogs. They are lovely, friendly dogs, they don't
bite unless attacked, but they really don't like intruders, they are
130lbs of pure muscle and they are trained to defend their master and
his property to death.
yitzhak in eretz isreal (sic)
2010-02-12 17:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria
People whose properties
Don't you mean, 'who's properties'? I'm sure you do. Ask Nazi Staples.
He'll tell you that's the correct way to write it ...

*snigger*

Shabbat shalom.

Y.
--
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
AADP's 'left-wing Israeli intellectual'
'If Algeria introduced a resolution in the UN, declaring that the earth
was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of
164 to 13 with 26 abstentions'
(Abba Eban)
<http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/>
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